Turning Negatives Into Positives
Yvon Chouniard is right – you should always let your people go surfing…
Based on a talk given at Camp Good Life (Autumn) 2021
I'm Jon. I work in sustainability for a flooring company called Interface.
I love hearing the stories of entrepreneurs like Eve Bell (of Baba+Boo, who spoke prior to Jon), who play such a crucial role in disrupting the status quo and taking on those incumbent big businesses. Interface on the other hand is the incumbent. If you go to cinemas, work in an office, or study at a school or university, you'll find our products on the floor. You probably didn’t notice them, you probably just walked over them – and that’s fine, as that’s what they are designed for. And for me, that’s the magic, because my role is taking a product that's used to being hidden in the background, and using it as a platform to inspire people on climate change and sustainability. There’s a lot of carpet tiles out there, so lots of opportunities to do this… I am responsible for developing our approach for Europe and Asia, communicating it, commercializing it. So I walk a fine line between someone who wants to be like an NGO and an activist and a disruptor, and someone who has to say, “how do we make sure that balance sheet looks right”?
In my role, I have to consider whether our messages are authentic and true, or whether they could be challenged for greenwashing. But I'm going to tell you a little bit about how I came to work at Interface and my own story, because, in a funny way, it all weaves together. And I'll also tell a little bit of my own side hustle, which is olympic weightlifting and what that's meant for me as well. But to start off, here's my general premise - Whatever you do, whatever you make, whoever you are, you should feel that you can make a difference. And at the moment as we come out of lockdown, a lot of people don't necessarily feel that way. Not only should you feel empowered to make a difference, you've got to avoid those messages when people are telling you no or that’s not for you. My career actually starts with, and this part of my life, starts with two instances of people saying exactly that.
The power of hearing no
I was a trainee lawyer about 26 years old having lunch with my peers. And I sat down and said, "You know what? I'm going to go learn to surf." And one of my peers responded, "You can't surf. You're not that great a swimmer. That's crazy talk."
And I was like, okay, you've just told me I can't do something. I don’t think she was trying to be mean, but it triggered me. I guess I can be quite stubborn. So I decided - I'm going to go and do it. So I went out to go and learn to surf. I'll come to that story in a moment.
The second one was a few years later, I was working as a lawyer. A very different career to the one I have now. I was specializing in pensions law and I'd just learned that pensions were really big pots of money that you could use to get people to invest more responsibly. I made a little niche by highlighting it in the trade press. But all my bosses, although they were lightly supportive, they were like, “let Jon just run with his own thing, but it's not core to our business. It's not really that important. He'll run to the end of his energy and come back into the fold of corporate M&A and usual trustee work”. Again, they were saying no. They were saying you want to do something, but you can't.
Stoked by the surf
I went and learned to surf. Initially, I got pounded by waves continuously. For anyone who's reading this and surfs, you’ve probably been there too. But I loved it – every moment I was in the water I was smiling. Down in the Gower, or out in Portugal, I just loved running and getting battered by the sea whilst seeking a few seconds of standing up on a foamie. I got better and it took me to really fascinating places. Because when you surf, you start searching for new and intriguing places that aren’t too crowded. I ended up going to places like Senegal to surf, which introduced me to an entirely different culture and some of the best pain au chocolats I've ever tasted. I shared beaches with the surfing goats of Ghana and mantas of Mozambique. I surfed alongside communities of kids who’d use old boards, and to be honest anything they could fashion, to ride waves. It also got me thinking - how does development, tourism and hospitality sit alongside its impact on the environment? Surf camps and hostels come in many forms, from those that are very much part of a community and zero impact, to those that alienate local communities and pollute. I question it all a little now because I flew to these places too. Also when I was surfing, I started to see bits of plastic in the sea. As you are paddling back to shore, you might pick up a plastic bag or those rings that you used to hold a six pack of cans. And so, I became more aware of the issue of marine litter. So now we flip from surfing back to the other side, in terms of my career.
Counting fish
So - I got furloughed before furlough was a thing. Back in 2008, and I'm quite mad about this, the law firm I worked for which was called Norton Rose, didn't want to make anyone redundant, which is a really good thing. At the time - there's a financial crisis, Lehman Brothers, all of that. And we got this email, "Would anyone want to take up to three months on sabbatical at one third pay?" And I was like, hang on, so you're going to pay me, and it's a pretty well-paid job, and I get to have a break. This is amazing. Now, for most of my colleagues who had ambitious plans to climb the corporate ladder, it was terrible. How are we going to advance? Are we going to be successful? In contrast - I was running to the HR team's office. I was the second person to put my name down. I put my name down alongside the person that was head of HR, who'd come up with the idea.
One point though. This is a rarity. One third pay, UK government 2020, kinder, up to 85%. So with this time, I went away and I did some marine conservation work inspired by surfing. Things started coming together. I went and spent some time in Fiji doing marine conservation counting fish. Yes, it’s a thing! And a cool one at that - studying the state of coral reefs, ranging from pristine coral gardens to bleached corals to sandy remnants. I found myself developing a much better connection with nature, and concern for nature.
I also went surfing. So I went off to, actually, the Senegal trip. I came back and I found this program called On Purpose. It allows you to move from private sector jobs into charities or businesses that want to do good. And I met, who I didn't know at the time, Miriam Turner, who would later be my boss for a couple of years at Interface. And she was like, "Why are you so sunburnt? You look really sunburnt. Obviously you're someone that gets a tan anyway, but you look really sunburnt." And I said, "Because I've been out in Senegal surfing (badly), and then whilst the tides changed, I've been helping the fishermen bring fishing nets in." She goes, "Fishing nets? I've got a project with fishing nets. I work for a company called Interface. We're working on a project that turns nylon fishing nets into material for our products, all the material for clothes to the fashion industry, but does so in a way that gives a fair price to communities, works with local fishermen and looks to restore mangroves, create marine protected areas." And I was like, "This sounds good. Sign me up." So, I signed a short-term contract and started out at Interface helping on the then, Net-Works programme. That was 10 years ago. Since then my career has grown in terms of working on that, telling stories to audiences all around the world. Everyone from economists to UN summits. Getting a chance to go into companies and make their R&D, product or leadership teams think about inclusive supply chains.
I think my favorite audience was a group in South Chicago of 7 to 10 year old’s, they were told to be journalists and to interview me - a so-called expert on all things ocean plastic. And they were just phenomenal. They asked the best, most important questions. One had even created his own ocean plastic jewellery business. They were in a school that focused on ensuring that the kids saw lots of opportunities and could try their hand at being a journalist, a climate negotiator or documentary maker covering Black Lives Matter. A school that was trying to say yes to their hopes/dreams.
I guess I think the moral of that story is when someone says no to something, don't listen to it. And you should have that belief that you can do something and you can make a difference. And now I get to head up sustainability strategy with the most ridiculous title, head of EAAA which is basically Europe, Asia, African, and Australia. It's like everything apart from the Americas. But it's good fun.
Changing minds step by step
The philosopher Confucius said, “A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step”. In a similar spirit, at Interface, we kind of say, we are trying to change the world one flooring tile at a time. Every time we can have a discussion with another company, can we make them feel differently? We get to talk to the good people, like your NGOs, your disruptors, but we also get to talk to the bigger businesses – to challenge them on greenwashing, to collaborate, and to be challenged back by them.
I remember going to Unilever, a couple of years back, into one of their drink divisions that was trying to work out how to respond to all these disruptors that were looking to use more recycled content or even reusables. They're using less plastic. They're creating less pollution. What do we do? And they brought me in to inspire them over dinner. Whatever the company (with a few exceptions), I always think you can find people who care about the climate and people who are keen to do good. And if you have that opportunity to coach, to change someone's mind, it’s a privilege. Or if you're going to an Extinction Rebellion protest and you're trying to make people think differently. If you're willing to listen to the counter arguments as well, and be willing to challenge them if you think they're wrong, you can make a difference, one conversation at a time. It's a really powerful, powerful thing.
Lifting my way up
Which leads me to my side hustle. Olympic weightlifting. It's a sport that you see at the Olympics. One of our lifters, Emily Campbell, came back with a first medal of any gender for 37 years with a Silver in Tokyo. And she's amazing. One thing I'm going to say about our British olympic weightlifting team, four women went out to represent us. Which was an important moment. Often when people talk about strength sports, it has been a very male dominated thing. I think that world is flipping, which is good.
There were two lifts in olympic weightlifting. The first one is called the snatch. And the aim is to get the bar with weight over your head in one fluid movement. And the second one, which will be more familiar, you might see it at your local gym, is called a clean and jerk. So the first part is to get the bar to your shoulders, that’s your halfway point, and then you've got to get it over your head. You've always got to get it over your head at the end.
I found it because I was trying to go to the Olympics in 2012 and I didn't have tickets for anything else. And the only thing that came up when I checked the website for spares was women's weightlifting. And I went along to watch and I was just amazed. So these ladies were kind of 55, 59 kilos, and they were throwing up 120, 130 kilos. Double their body weight above. And at the time I was like, there's no way. No way I could do that.
I told myself “no”, and that’s the twist on my previous examples. Not only that, you have to be careful about what other people tell you you can't do. You have to be careful about what you tell yourself that you can't do.
So, about five years later, I saw an advert for a weightlifting workshop in East London, went along and then just kind of fell in love with the sport. Different sports appeal to different people and different stages of people's lives. And for me, what I love about olympic weightlifting is that moment when you go up onto a platform in a competition to lift. It's silent. It's just you and the weight and the judges. And you have to clear your mind. To me, it is a form of meditation. I just have to do one thing and I do it the best I can.
You get better over time and it’s a sport that leans to a growth mindset. Because I'm not the most flexible, but I've been working on that. And as every kind of kilo more that you lift, you kind of prove to yourself that you can make a difference to yourself.
Coaching to say “yes, you can…”
And it’s given me a chance to give back as I've started to learn to coach in weightlifting. And it's been such a really interesting journey because it's not so dissimilar from when you're coaching from a sustainability or business stance. Because the core is the same. You're taking a group of people, or an individual. You're getting them to believe that they can. You're getting them to believe that something's possible.
Then you're getting them to actually do it and see for themselves and celebrate it or see things differently. And I think that's such a special thing. I don't think I understood that in my younger years, that power of coaching or teaching or mentoring. I think I undervalued it in my teens and my twenties and even into my thirties, and I’m not so far from my forties.
So I guess this is what I’ve learned - it does not matter if you are working floors, sustainability or you're doing weightlifting, that whatever you do... that you can always make a difference and help others realise this fact too. And I think it's important that we remind each other that we can do that.
Jon Khoo